tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post3063887997385096113..comments2023-12-04T18:08:04.286+00:00Comments on Scribbling in the margins: King Harold's DaughterCarol McGrathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-37154745042704387052013-07-07T16:34:16.036+01:002013-07-07T16:34:16.036+01:00The Westminster Charters provided at British Histo...The Westminster Charters provided at British History Online include charter 54 by King William II, attested by Count Alan (i.e. Alan Rufus) (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63939&strquery=Alan) as follows.<br />"Writ of WII, informing the men of London that he has conceded to St Peter of Westminster St Mary Newchurch as Alward of London gave it, and ordering that the abbey is to hold it as fully and peaceably as W I commanded by his writ."zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-56238684908254700342013-07-07T16:16:06.047+01:002013-07-07T16:16:06.047+01:00I'll have to search for the genealogy so that ...I'll have to search for the genealogy so that you can use the same name for that son of Alan Niger and Gunnhild.<br />Why two brothers named Alan? It seemed common practice: Empress Maud had a half-sister also named Maud who married into Alan's family!<br />In Victorian era genealogies, I've noticed that if a child named, say, Thomas, died young, then the next child might also be named Thomas, and so on until one Thomas survived. Alan was a very popular Breton names, so if Alan Rufus looked sure to die of some medieval illness and his mother Agnes had just borne a new son, they may have named him Alan to continue the name. Or perhaps "Alan Rufus" and "Alan Niger" were meant to be their given names?<br />Incidentally, Alan is so popular a name in Brittany that King Francis I of France was descended from a line of seven Alans, one Yann, one Oliver and one Marguerite de Rohan, all descended from Constance of Brittany, Alan Rufus's grand-niece.<br />Speaking of Oliver, and thus Roland, one reason for William's troops singing the Song of Roland before the Battle of Hastings is that Roland (Riwallon) was a Breton.zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-71766157115422170192013-07-07T16:04:13.703+01:002013-07-07T16:04:13.703+01:00Here is an email contact for me if there is more c...Here is an email contact for me if there is more carolmmcgrath@gmail.com. You are terrifically knowledgeable. Keep in touch. CCarol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-51631434101301337592013-07-07T15:59:00.583+01:002013-07-07T15:59:00.583+01:00I think Alan and Gunnhild loved each other too muc...I think Alan and Gunnhild loved each other too much to marry another, and were too pious to disobey Anselm. Alan was loyal to Kings William I and II, so maybe he didn't want to upset them over such a matter? Or maybe he was too busy working, building, fighting and being the diplomat to get around to marrying and settling down?<br />Alan and Gunnhild may have inspired the tale of Lancelot and Guinevere: the medieval Arthurian stories were written by acquaintances of Alan's family.<br />Even if the Alans had no issue, the rest of the family multiplied. Matilda d'Ayncourt and Alan's brothers Ribald and Stephen are ancestors of most people of British descent alive today. In the high middle ages, the Houses of Percy and Neville descended from them. Ribald's Middleham Castle was passed down to Warwick the Kingmaker and was Richard III's favourite residence.<br />As to why Alan had so much sway, he and his brother Brian did much of William's fighting: Brian in the south-west, and Alan in the east from London to the Scottish borders as well as on the Continent.<br />Here's another odd clue: Alan left his command at the siege of Sainte Suzanne after a year, a little before the Domesday surveys began. The first survey was of Cambridgeshire, followed by Little Domesday which surveyed Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk, then by Great Domesday which began in Yorkshire. The order is the same as that by which Alan acquired most of his possessions. (Also, a polite comment of his on a property dispute with his subordinate, Aubrey de Vere, was recorded.) The Breton leaders were famous for resource management, so I wonder whether Alan was Commissioner-in-Chief?zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-31881863892147045692013-07-07T15:26:33.891+01:002013-07-07T15:26:33.891+01:00My goodness I was about to write an illigitimate s...My goodness I was about to write an illigitimate son for Gunnhild and Alan Niger and then thought impossible. How uncanny.The dates could work!Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-56329596551881065902013-07-07T15:21:11.300+01:002013-07-07T15:21:11.300+01:00I mean the King Arthur connection of course. I cou...I mean the King Arthur connection of course. I could have woven it through. Maybe can still do this. I still find the Alan then Brother Alan story puzzling. Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-78076704745228258732013-07-07T15:16:46.771+01:002013-07-07T15:16:46.771+01:00Goodness, what a story. Fortunate that the book is...Goodness, what a story. Fortunate that the book is fiction. If I had thought about the author connection I could do much with that. Gaimar and Wace are possibly under looked at perhaps. Thank you for taking time to share this knowledge.Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-80462158533658738502013-07-07T15:05:07.954+01:002013-07-07T15:05:07.954+01:00(1) There are many opinions about whether Alan Ruf...(1) There are many opinions about whether Alan Rufus married Gunnhild. One genealogy I've seen claims that Alan Niger and Gunnhild had an illegitimate son.<br />The first of Anselm's letters seems to refer to Alan Rufus as being alive, in which case Alan probably survived past December 1093 as Anselm was apparently Archbishop when he wrote it), the second clearly refers to Alan Niger.<br />When was Alan Rufus born? 1040 is a rough estimate; we know that he, several of his brothers, and his father witnessed a charter in Angers during the 1050s, so it's possible he was older. I'd love to see Alan's signature, because the Latin hand-writing in the charters of his great-nephew Duke Conan IV is beautifully like Tolkien's elvish script.<br />(2) Alan Rufus and Gunnhild may have inspired the tale of the doomed love of Lancelot and Guinevere. Recall that Lancelot was a Breton and "in his very youth, a valiant knight" as was written of Alan. Evidently, details were changed and added, but it is a fact that the locations in each version of the Arthurian Cycle (Brittany, Cornwall and adjacent counties, East Anglia, Yorkshire and the Scottish Borders) were places where Alan and his brother Brian were active. Moreover, the medieval authors of that Cycle were personally acquainted with Alan's family: one legend has it that King Arthur and his knights lie sleeping under Richmond Castle!<br />(3) Matilda, whoever she was exactly, and Alan's brothers Ribald and Stephen are, it's estimated, the ancestors of most people of British descent alive today; all of Stephen's children and grandchildren (so far as I've checked) are ancestors of Queen Elizabeth II.<br />The high-medieval Percy and Neville families descended from Alan's siblings, e.g. Warwick the Kingmaker had at least two descents from Matilda and at least one from Ribald whose Middleham Castle was Warwick's (and Richard III's) favourite residence.<br />(4) Alan, Brian and their loyal followers seem to have done much of William's fighting for him: Gaimar and Wace attribute the victory at Hastings to Alan, and we have hints of Alan's role in the North, while the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle states that the expedition of Harold's sons and their Irish allies to the south-west was defeated specifically by Brian.<br />Alan was William's double-second cousin, was in England as an ally not as a subject, and the Bretons had better claims to both Normandy and England than did William, because (i) they were born legitimate and thus had a better pedigree, and (ii) the Bretons were in Normandy before the Normans and in Britain before the English, so they had precedence.<br />The flip side of the coin was Alan's firm loyalty to family and friends. Alan's uncle Duke Alan III and father Eozen had been William's guardians, as William's grandfather Duke Richard II ("the Good") had been theirs. So the debt was mutual.zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-64881672101569907992013-07-07T15:04:12.218+01:002013-07-07T15:04:12.218+01:00(1) There are many opinions about whether Alan Ruf...(1) There are many opinions about whether Alan Rufus married Gunnhild. One genealogy I've seen claims that Alan Niger and Gunnhild had an illegitimate son.<br />The first of Anselm's letters seems to refer to Alan Rufus as being alive, in which case Alan probably survived past December 1093 as Anselm was apparently Archbishop when he wrote it), the second clearly refers to Alan Niger.<br />When was Alan Rufus born? 1040 is a rough estimate; we know that he, several of his brothers, and his father witnessed a charter in Angers during the 1050s, so it's possible he was older. I'd love to see Alan's signature, because the Latin hand-writing in the charters of his great-nephew Duke Conan IV is beautifully like Tolkien's elvish script.<br />(2) Alan Rufus and Gunnhild may have inspired the tale of the doomed love of Lancelot and Guinevere. Recall that Lancelot was a Breton and "in his very youth, a valiant knight" as was written of Alan. Evidently, details were changed and added, but it is a fact that the locations in each version of the Arthurian Cycle (Brittany, Cornwall and adjacent counties, East Anglia, Yorkshire and the Scottish Borders) were places where Alan and his brother Brian were active. Moreover, the medieval authors of that Cycle were personally acquainted with Alan's family: one legend has it that King Arthur and his knights lie sleeping under Richmond Castle!<br />(3) Matilda, whoever she was exactly, and Alan's brothers Ribald and Stephen are, it's estimated, the ancestors of most people of British descent alive today; all of Stephen's children and grandchildren (so far as I've checked) are ancestors of Queen Elizabeth II.<br />The high-medieval Percy and Neville families descended from Alan's siblings, e.g. Warwick the Kingmaker had at least two descents from Matilda and at least one from Ribald whose Middleham Castle was Warwick's (and Richard III's) favourite residence.<br />(4) Alan, Brian and their loyal followers seem to have done much of William's fighting for him: Gaimar and Wace attribute the victory at Hastings to Alan, and we have hints of Alan's role in the North, while the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle states that the expedition of Harold's sons and their Irish allies to the south-west was defeated specifically by Brian.<br />Alan was William's double-second cousin, was in England as an ally not as a subject, and the Bretons had better claims to both Normandy and England than did William, because (i) they were born legitimate and thus had a better pedigree, and (ii) the Bretons were in Normandy before the Normans and in Britain before the English, so they had precedence.<br />The flip side of the coin was Alan's firm loyalty to family and friends. Alan's uncle Duke Alan III and father Eozen had been William's guardians, as William's grandfather Duke Richard II ("the Good") had been theirs. So the debt was mutual.zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-66552640712728335322013-07-06T14:51:47.494+01:002013-07-06T14:51:47.494+01:00Thank you for coming back to me. I do think perhap...Thank you for coming back to me. I do think perhaps Count Alan was more philanthropic than I portrayed him in The Handfasted Wife (published by Accent Press) Look on amazon if interested in it. I keep discovering more. I am very interested in your theories. The truth is I don't know about Matilda. I went by the Haskins journal ( Richard Sharp) suggestion that perhaps Alan and Gunnhild had a daughter. Nice thought. Do keep looking for Matilda though. I have written the second novel now and used that theory but I know it may not be true, sadly. Thank you for all this. It certainly is intriguing and possible too. How on earth did Alan have power to dictate land grants over and above the king. Clearly the king needed and respected him. And why did he never marry and why did his brother not marry? Or did he marry Gunnhild in the 1070s but they never had any children? He would have been old by 1090. I wondered if the Anselm letters referred to his brother. There are lots of unanswered questions. I do plan a factual book with the historian hat on but will present the various theories. I do know the Oderic Vitalis piece too. OV is generally sound. That part must be so, I suspect! Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-25554122701509549072013-07-06T14:29:48.455+01:002013-07-06T14:29:48.455+01:00Most likely, Alan Rufus and Gunnhild had no childr...Most likely, Alan Rufus and Gunnhild had no children - Orderic Vitalis (born in 1075) wrote of Alan's "death without issue".<br />The source I sighted for Matilda as Alan's sister is proving embarrassingly elusive, but there are circumstantial indications that elements of its story are true, as follows.<br />Domesday reveals that Edeva the Fair (Edith Swannesha, Gunnhild's mother) was Overlord of Bourn, and her local representative in Bourn and several other towns was named Almer. Now, Alan took over Bourn, and many other of Edeva's properties, and he retained Almer; moreover, Alan gave Almer additional manors elsewhere.<br />Now, if Matilda was already acquainted with Edeva, this may explain why there was a warm handover of Edeva's properties to Alan.<br />Orderic praised Alan thus: "He was ever studious for peace, a great lover of the poor, and an especial honorer of the religious; his death without issue occasioned no little sadness to the peopleā. Why would one of William the Conqueror's most trusted allies be sadly missed by the English?<br />The Domesday Book entries for "The Land of Count Alan" in Yorkshire give some clues. After the first Northern rebellion, Alan received many manors there, suggesting he played a major part in its defeat. Then (1069-1070) the dreadful Harrying occurred, led by Bishop Odo at King William's command. Orderic condemned William for this, but made no such complaint against Alan, so perhaps Alan was not involved - it's plausible, as Alan moved around very swiftly, and may have been in France fighting or in Scotland on a diplomatic mission.<br />In 1071, Earls Edwin and Morcar, disgusted by the Harrying, rebelled but were defeated: Edwin was killed and Morcar imprisoned for life. Lo and behold, Alan gets most of Edwin's properties, which suggests a reward for defeating him.<br />But, here's the paradox: you'd think that William and Odo would get big slices of the pie in the newly extended Land of Count Alan. Instead, the Domesday Book reveals that William got one single town, Ainderby Steeple, and Odo got nothing. To whom did Alan give the lordships of the towns?<br />Alan gave many of Edwin's properties to Alan's brother Ribald or his half-brother Bodin or other loyal Bretons, but the rest of the Land of Count Alan was handed back to the surviving English lords or their heirs!<br />So, after the dust settled, the final tally, adjudicated by Alan Rufus, was: Norman lords: one town, English lords: many towns, Bretons: many towns.<br />What on Earth was behind that? Two paintings were made of the official transfer of the first swathe of Yorkshire land to Alan. They both show King William on a throne, looking greatly troubled, with Alan kneeling before him but smiling benignly. Behind William are his Norman bodyguard, bur behind them are a great mass of Breton knights blocking the only door. The charter reads: "I, William, called 'the Bastard', King of England, hereby grant and concede to my nephew, Alan, ...".<br />There are three highly significant words in the charter: (1) William acknowledged his illegitimacy; (2) the land was not merely granted but _conceded_, so the King reliquished his rights over it; (3) Alan, his cousin, was named his nephew, placing Alan in line for the throne - had William and his sons died before Alan, then Alan would have become King.<br />I speculate, therefore, that Alan intervened in the Harrying, drove Odo and the Normans southwards out of the County, then called on King William for an urgent meeting. As William was approaching, Alan and his knights surrounded the King to assert, as diplomatically as possible, that his Majesty would do well to come inside to sign a certain innocent but necessary document.<br />Did Alan have the power to impose such terms on the Conqueror himself? Evidently. For when William died and Bishop Odo led most of the great magnates against the new King, William II, Alan stood against Odo and the rebellion swiftly collapsed.zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-68254098265116178262013-03-05T06:18:31.373+00:002013-03-05T06:18:31.373+00:00Thank you for this information. Are you suggesting...Thank you for this information. Are you suggesting that Gunnhild's daughter, as suggested in Haskins Journal was in fact Matilda Count Alain's sister and do you have a source. This is fascinating.Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-73262662569737084982013-03-04T02:48:41.829+00:002013-03-04T02:48:41.829+00:00The earlier theory about this Matilda d'Aincou...The earlier theory about this Matilda d'Aincourt (there were many subsequent Matildas in her family) is that she was Count Alan's sister.<br /><br />Matilda's husband Walter d'Aincourt is known to have been a mature adult in 1066.<br /><br />One account is that she and Walter married in 1065 in Bourn, Cambridgeshire, just east of the old Roman road that was subsequently renamed Ermine Street in honour of the Duchy of Brittany.<br /><br />Count Alan was William the Conqueror's second cousin twice, had twice the royal heritage that William had, and William accounted him a "nephew", placing him in line for the throne.<br /><br />So any child of Alan's would be accounted royal, as would any child of his siblings.zoetropohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561232179829754977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-48758046881078848772012-11-20T20:39:24.513+00:002012-11-20T20:39:24.513+00:00And it progresses very well. I love writing this o...And it progresses very well. I love writing this one. It was such a brilliant start. Begun in Portugal, continues in Oxford and Greece.Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-6795491890996889082012-11-20T20:31:16.275+00:002012-11-20T20:31:16.275+00:00Very much looking forward to reading this, Carol, ...Very much looking forward to reading this, Carol, as I was in the start of the novel in the Algarve.<br />Alison Mortonhttp://alison-morton.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-22907993691611524612012-11-13T14:07:23.559+00:002012-11-13T14:07:23.559+00:00Disagreement between 'experts' is such gri...Disagreement between 'experts' is such grist for writers!NikkiFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05129637796027446032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-21298972805987614022012-11-11T19:27:07.992+00:002012-11-11T19:27:07.992+00:00I am loving her as a protagonist I have to say. In...I am loving her as a protagonist I have to say. Interestingly I am very influenced by a Swedish classic Kristin Lavransdatter set in medieval Norway. I have loved the trilogy for a quater century.Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-59140303753649365812012-11-11T19:19:50.988+00:002012-11-11T19:19:50.988+00:00Sounds like a great story, Carol, can't wait t...Sounds like a great story, Carol, can't wait to read it! (Funnily enough I had a school teacher called Gunhild - the name is still used in Sweden although it's now very old-fashioned.)Christina Courtenayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17394275746146697340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-78322069259310689872012-11-11T18:17:39.064+00:002012-11-11T18:17:39.064+00:00And thank you both yourself and Liz for the encou...And thank you both yourself and Liz for the encouragement.Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-50860780676845789492012-11-11T17:54:30.357+00:002012-11-11T17:54:30.357+00:00Lovely to have some information about your Winter ...Lovely to have some information about your Winter Countess - an evocative title.I love the idea that 'women were shadows in a corner' - that's exactly right, and it's great that you are bringing one of them back out into the light.Deborah Swifthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10594174632573628818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-67485574903131630612012-11-11T16:57:24.347+00:002012-11-11T16:57:24.347+00:00So loved writing it. It gets Gunnhild clearly in m...So loved writing it. It gets Gunnhild clearly in my head. Closer and closer though the title is only a working title. Not sure I would really call it that at all.Carol McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072696398820339640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8900975960314592181.post-27818536587675908232012-11-11T13:24:08.410+00:002012-11-11T13:24:08.410+00:00An enjoyable post, Carol. What an interesting tim...An enjoyable post, Carol. What an interesting time in which she lived.<br /><br />Liz XLiz Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936240880106723456noreply@blogger.com